Anne, did you bother to really read my post? It sounds like you confused what I said with what Jewel said.

I made a very clear point to her that something TEMPORARY and NON-INVASIVE like wearing make-up or changing one's hair colour or style is a HUGELY different dynamic than plastic surgery (caps added so you don't again misconstrue what I wrote). Even a tat is very minor, and far less invasive, than having body parts modified. She was equating all those minor things with being no different than a boob job. I disagreed. So I am not sure how you misunderstood what I said.

The example of Jocelyne is in response to Jewel's statement that people can be trusted to know their own limits. Obviously, that is not always true. Body Dysmorphic Disorder is not that uncommon, or we would not have the high rates of anorexia or bulimia in our society. I guarantee you just about every woman in this forum knows of someone who suffers from BDD in some degree or another.

None of us are qualified to give ANYONE over the internet a clean psychological pass on getting whatever plastic surgery they can obtain. That vetting should be done by a prospective surgeon, but so often, that is infrequently the case. Not enough surgeons really delve into why the patient wants the surgery, what expectations they have regarding the change, and how realistic those expectations are, and if it's ethically right to proceed.

And the fact is, people die from complications resulting from plastic surgery. Look at Kayne West's mother... she was a healthy woman with a very experienced and reputable surgeon, and things still went very wrong.

What I am being "judgmental" about, as you claim, is Jewel's attitude that no one should ask people to look at all the risks and considerations, and especially their own motivations, before having a very invasive procedure done. And the idea that wearing braces is done for no different motivations than cosmetic surgery would be funny if it's weren't so ridiculous. I had braces at 11 because I had too many teeth in my jaws and 4 had to be removed, and then all the teeth properly realigned, not because my parents had some distorted idea of me needing to look "perfect". Proper lifetime dental health care and well-maintained teeth are a necessity that extends beyond the mere aesthetic value. If you and Jewel cannot understand the inherent difference between that and, say, perky boobs at the age of 45, then I do have to wonder about that kind of rationalization.

I'm sorry if you are taking that personally, but you really can't expect to have a discussion about plastic surgery without hearing views both for and against it, do you? The fact is, for a certain percentage of people, BDD and aspirations of youth *do* play into the motivation for getting plastic surgery. To pretend otherwise is harmful. Even if someone I know were to plan on getting medically-necessary surgery, I would still ask them to research the pros and cons, any less invasive alternative treatments, etc., before consenting to going under the knife.

And since you mentioned it, I would like to ask you, how many "odd" nip and tuck procedures would qualify as "too many"??

I'm gonna quote myself:

"This dichotomy, I argue, is another method of dividing women. We are all trying to enhance our beauty or show it off in some way or another, hopefully for ourselves - but if not, is that a problem? Are we going to argue motivation? We could argue radical surgeries are problematic, but then you could speak to a post-op transsexual who I assure you would tell you differently."

Exactly, Jewel. Argued under "right to privacy"

If we cannot be trusted with our own bodies, then who can?